jetting problems after spending $2000 on mods

I'm trying dude. I have done tons of reading. I have always been lucky at jetting 4 strokes, i never had these kind of problems.

4 strokes are a different beast, and is very hard to fry even with lean jetting
take the jetting 101 post step by step, don't even read the next part till you feel confident you have the pilot, then needle, then main
one section at a time,
trust me, thats how i had to do it my first time
 
My $.02 : Air screw is air screw, idle is idle, simple. Plus seems I read you pulled your tube off and ran it? Did you have ANY air cleaner on it?
 
you cannot jet it, or run it without a filter
 
Any time you make any change to the inlet of a 2 stroke, you must jet accordinally, and do a plug chop every time you make changes, or you are simply playing the rich mans game of heres my wallet take what you need for a rebuild.

Mess with the air flow and plug chops are needed to get the jetting right with each change you make!
 
I feel sorry for Turbowrenchead, he is so enthusiastic and we all seem so critical,
but you guys are bang on, and I know you don't intend to be mean.
One step at a time, must run filter. Good basic stuff.

Let me tell you a couple "no filter" stories:
1) Brand new piston and cylinder bore. One little test run around the lawn on the grass. No filter.
Big groove worn in new piston and cylinder wall from FOD (foreign object damage) at 15 minutes of running.
2) Same story start, fresh motor rebuild installed in motocross bike, no filter, quick lap of the backyard grass.
One quick blip of the throttle resulted in a bit of grit binding the throttle slide. It stuck open.
The unexpected acceleration probably kept the rider from using the brake or kill switch or clutch.
In probably no more than 2 seconds and about 30 yards the bike was doing over 50kph.
By the mercy of God, striking the front fender of my Thunderbird, which put the rider over the handle bars,
nearly breaking both femurs, but eating up much of the forward energy. It did $1200 parts damage to the car
but the rider lived, which probably would not have happened if he had struck the side of the house at that speed.

You do have to jet as you run, but there ^^ are a couple more reasons to run a filter.

Turbowrenchhead, we are hoping for your success! These are good guys. Worth listening to.
 
I feel sorry for Turbowrenchead, he is so enthusiastic and we all seem so critical,
.

yes, i was very critical at one point, i had to get his attention
somehow, and get him to follow the exact procedures we have gone over and over in this thread

hopefully now, his enthusiasm to find "ice" and go ripping on it, will be preceded by a few hours of proper jetting, break-in and plug chops, on his 3rd attempt at keeping an engine running for longer than 1/2 a ride.
 
I only popped off the air tube to see if that was what causing the popping at 1/2 throttle. It was the problem. I was on a public paved road and I didn't want to be there to long before the cops show up to give me a ticket. I didn't have a short piece of tube to put the a/f on. So I did a plug chop run to at least give me a starting point. I fabed up a 6" short pipe. I don't like how it sits right above the chain. I can see future problems with mud and water getting on it. The trails can get pretty muddy where I go. So I just might spring for a cfm box and be done with it. I have to sell more atv parts on ebay to pay for it though first. Today when the baby takes his nap I'm going to go out there and tune in my pilot per procedure and make awk proud.
 
I only popped off the air tube to see if that was what causing the popping at 1/2 throttle. It was the problem. I was on a public paved road and I didn't want to be there to long before the cops show up to give me a ticket. I didn't have a short piece of tube to put the a/f on. So I did a plug chop run to at least give me a starting point. I fabed up a 6" short pipe. I don't like how it sits right above the chain. I can see future problems with mud and water getting on it. The trails can get pretty muddy where I go. So I just might spring for a cfm box and be done with it. I have to sell more atv parts on ebay to pay for it though first. Today when the baby takes his nap I'm going to go out there and tune in my pilot per procedure and make awk proud.


This is how I jetted my 35mm carb! this is from 4cfed-

The following information is offered as a guide for a practical interpretation of the workings of Keihin PE, PJ, PWM and PWK carburetors. Many people are intimidated by carburetion jetting. One of the easiest ways to work through your jetting frustration is to not view jetting as one big mystery. Jetting should be broken down into many small questions, which when thought through with some technical instruction and common sense can be deciphered into to the appropriate carburetor settings.

AIR SCREW: The air screw is a small (5mm in diameter) slotted brass adjustment screw located on the inlet side (air cleaner) of the carburetor. The airscrew is a fine-tuning adjustment designed to allow the carburetor to be slightly adjusted for variances in atmospheric conditions. The airscrew works with the pilot/slow speed system of the carburetor, mainly affecting the engines initial starting, idling and initial power delivery. Proper adjustment of the airscrew can offer direct feed back on the necessary setting required for the pilot jet. The airscrew is adjusted in a rather straightforward manor. See Figure 1 for application chart

The ideal procedure for setting the screw in the correct position is to warm up your ATV engine to the proper operating temperature. Then turn the idle up so it is idling about 500 RPM’s higher than normal. Next turn the airscrew all the way in until it bottoms out, once bottomed out slowly back the screw out a ¼ turn at a time (give the engine 10-15 seconds between each ¼ turn of the screw, to allow the engine to catch up with the adjustments). Continue backing the airscrew out until the engine idles at its highest RPM. The preferred setting window is between 1 and 2 turns. If the engine idles at its highest RPM from 0-1 turns out this means the pilot setting is on the Lean side and a larger pilot jet should be installed. If the engine idles at its highest RPM at over 2 turns out, this means the pilot setting is on the Rich side and a smaller pilot jet should be installed.

If you get no RPM fluctuation when adjusting the air screw there is a very realistic chance that there is something clogging the pilot/slow speed system. Clean the system thoroughly with contact cleaner and blow out with compressed air. Carburetor must be disassembled.

If the airscrew adjustment process is unsuccessful and leaves you confused. Set the screw at 1 ½ turns out and consult a professional for further assistance.

PILOT JET: The pilot jet is a medium size (¾-1") brass jet located inside the float bowl next to the needle jet/main jet location. The pilot jet meters the fuel required for engine starting, idling and the initial throttle opening 0-1/8.

A lean pilot jet setting will cause your engine to surge at very low RPM’s, bog or cut-out when the throttle is opened quickly and have trouble idling down.

A rich pilot setting will result in hard starting, plug fouling at low RPM’s, sputtering as the throttle is cracked opened.

The pilot jet is not difficult to set. With proper air screw adjustment and a close initial setting from your engine tuner, fine-tuning should be painless. Once set the pilot jet is not terribly sensitive. You should only be required to adjust the setting when confronted with large weather changes or altitude swings of over 2000 ft.

If adjusting the pilot jet gives inconsistent feed back, or does unexplainable things. Check and clean out the pilot/slow speed system thoroughly with contact cleaner and blow out with compressed air.

Pilot jet sizes are numbered in the following pattern; #42, #45, #48, #50, #52, #55, #58, #60 etc. repeating the pattern. Sizes available on most models are from #35 to #80.

SLIDE: The slide not only monitors how much airflow goes into your engine (its main job). But it has various angles cut on the bottom of the slide to monitor airflow at low RPM’s. This is referred to as slide cut away. The slide cut away is measured in 4.0, 5.0, 6.0 etc. (see attached chart). The higher the number, the larger the cut away the leaner the slide setting is.

The slide cut away generally effects the jetting in the ¼ throttle range at almost the same throttle position as the needle diameter effects. The slide cut away is usually predetermined by the engine manufacture or engine tuner. As a general rule do not change the slide cut away unless instructed to do so by a skilled engine tuner.

For ¼ throttle jetting adjustments it is easier to adjust the needle diameter.

NEEDLE: The jet needle is the most important component in determining your carburetors jetting. The needle is broken into 3 main functions; Diameter, Length, Taper. These needle functions have a large effect on the carburetors jetting from ¼ to ¾ throttle. In the following paragraphs we will explain the needles functions and how to adjust them.

DIAMETER: The needle diameter controls the jetting just above the pilot jet, right as the engine begins to pull. On most engine combinations the needle diameter is felt in the ¼ throttle range. The setting of the needle diameter is crucial to both the engines low RPM power and reliability.

The jetting at ¼ throttle is adjusted by changing the diameter of the needle. On gold colored needles identified with the 3 stamped in letter I.D. system the last letter refers to the needle diameter size. By referencing the enclosed jetting chart you can verify your needles size, and be able to determine what needle size may be required for your specific situation. In many instances you can leave the taper and length settings the same (if they are correct) and adjust only the diameter. EXAMPLE: If you have a needle marked DGJ and change it for a needle marked DGK, you have effectively Leaned the jetting at the ¼ throttle position. Reference the enclosed jetting chart to clearly understand this adjustment.

When the needle diameter is Lean the machine will have a loss of low-end power. The engine will feel very zingy (like a 125cc engine). When an engine is in this condition and then put under a heavy load the engine becomes very susceptible to seizing.

When the needle diameter is Rich the machine will sputter at ¼ throttle and be hesitant to take the throttle. In extreme cases the engine can feel like the choke is on or the plug is fouling.

When the needle diameter jetting is set correctly the engine will accelerate evenly thru the first part of the power band. The proper diameter setting will provide maximum low RPM power and very ride able throttle response.

It is important to remember that even though the needle diameter is mainly responsible for the jetting at ¼ throttle there is some bleed effect. With experience this can easily be deciphered. An excellent way to pin point the feel of the needle diameter is test needles in your machine that have both the same taper and length but richer and leaner diameter settings. Try a needle of each setting in your machine for 10-15 minutes of riding and you will begin to understand specifically what throttle position your dealing with.

LENGTH: The needle length is determined by the clip position (grooves at top of needle) setting on the upper portion of the needle. On most needles there are 5 clip positions. The top clip position is referred to as #1 and is the Leanest setting. The clips are referred to in numerical order with the bottom position being #5, the Richest (refer to attached jetting chart illustration). The clip/length setting covers the largest percentage of jetting in your carburetor. With an emphasis at ½ throttle, the clip (length) setting will bleed both up and down to some degree to cover a wide portion of the midrange jetting.

When the clip/length setting is Lean the machine will be very zingy sounding and feel kind of similar to an 80cc or 125cc machine. Lean in the midrange will also rob power and cause the machine to run hot and seize easily.

When the clip/length setting is Rich the machine will have a lazy feeling in the midrange. Exhaust note will be a little flat sounding. In extreme cases of richness the engine will even sputter or kind of crap out in the midrange.

The safest way to set the clip position is to richen up the clip position setting until the machine loses a little power (feels lazy/unresponsive) then lean it back one position. Ideally you like to run the needle setting in either the 3rd or 4th clip position, if possible. The needle clip jetting is especially critical to your machines reliability because on average more time is spent in the midrange than any other part of the throttle. Most machines pull very hard in the midrange, putting quite a load on the engine. This makes a lean condition very detrimental to your reliability.

TAPER: The needle taper is the angle of the needle at its lower half. The taper works the transition between the midrange and full throttle/main jet (¾ throttle position). The taper is the least sensitive function of the needle. Changes in the taper have very mild subtle changes in the jetting. The taper also affects the main jet size your carburetor requires. A leaner needle taper will use a richer main jet than a comparable engine/carburetor combo with a richer needle taper.

As a general rule, your engine tuner or engine manufacture should preset the taper. Once set correctly by a professional the taper setting should not need to be changed except for cases of extreme temperature reduction.

MAIN JET: The main jet affects the jetting in the upper quarter of the throttle position. Coming into play at ¾ throttle on through to full open throttle. Even though most people relate the main jet to their carburetor in general. The main jet is only responsible for the last ¼ of the jetting. The main jet does not effect the jetting for starting and idling. It plays no part on low RPM or mid RPM jetting either. The main jet is very important to your machines overall tuning, but should never be over emphasized at the expense of needle tuning or other facets of your carburetion tuning.

When the main jet is Lean the engine will experience detonation or "pinging". Exhaust note will be of a higher, tinier type note. Engine will over heat easy and can be down on horsepower. A moderately lean main jet can cause engine seizures. A severely lean main jet can cause the engine to burn a piston (whole in top).

When the main jet is Rich the engine will be a bit flat or lazy at ¾ to full throttle, giving off a flat, dead sounding exhaust note. When the main jet is severely rich the engine will sputter in the high RPM’s and have a lot of trouble making power up top.

The safest way to get the main jet setting as near correct as possible is to richen the main jet setting up until the engine begins to lose power and not rev to as high of RPM as before. On a single cylinder machine this will signal that the jetting is beginning to get rich. Depending on your riding application you can lean it down a bit from there or leave it for conditions requiring extra fuel (desert racing, long high speed runs, etc.)

As a general rule, richen the jetting up as long as the engine likes it and continues to run just as well or better than the smaller size main jet previously installed. When the engine no longer continues to improve its performance you will know you have gone to far.

Main jets are offered from #90 to #230. Starting at #90, sizing cycles like the following #90, #92, #95, #98, #100, #102, #105, #108, #110, #112, etc…. up thru #200, #205, #210, #215, #220, #230.

NEVER USE ANY MAIN JETS THAT ARE NOT GENUINE KEIHIN JETS. ALL GENUINE JETS HAVE A KEIHIN TRADEMARK STAMPED IN THEM. CHEAP IMITATION AFTERMARKET JETS ARE NOT ALWAYS SIZED PROPERLY, WHICH CAN CAUSE POOR PERFORMANCE OR ENGINE DAMAGE.

TUNING TIPS-GENERAL -
Make sure machine is assembled properly and engine has passed a pressure test. It can be virtually impossible to tune an engine with an air leak. It is imperative that you establish a solid baseline with proper assembly and an air leak free engine. *Note: On a 2-Stroke engine there is absolutely no way to be sure your engine DOES NOT have an air leak without properly performing a pressure test.

- Establish that the engines compression is not weakened. Any loss of compression for whatever reason will give off signs that engines jetting is rich. Consult your service manual or engine tuner for proper compression reading. Any loss of compression on a 2-stroke engine should be followed by a top end disassembly and inspection of piston, rings, cylinder liner etc.
- Compression Test How To: Always use a quality name brand gauge (SNAP-ON Best Choice). Note length of threaded probe in relation to spark plug length. Perform test with engine cold, throttle wide open. Kick machine over until needle quits moving (10-15 kicks normal). Perform 3 separate tests, record results.

It is always a wise idea to perform a compression test on a fresh engine right after break-in to use for future reference.- Spark Plug: To properly tune a 2 or 4 Stroke engine it is imperative to have a good quality spark plug that is functioning properly. This means that the plug cannot be too old or partially fouled. Spark plug gap is essential; an improperly gapped plug (or partially fouled one) can cause the engine to run poorly, sometimes appearing to be a jetting problem when in reality the problem originates at the spark plug. Also make sure you are using the correct heat range.
- Weak Spark: Weak spark is not only detrimental to your engines performance but can make tuning your engine a nightmare. Weak spark will make the engine run rich. When an engine is running rich due to weak or poor spark the machines performance will slowly continue to deteriorate. Some common causes of weak or poor spark can be a failing or faulty stator, faulty plug cap or plug wire, failing coil, improper ground etc.
- Plug Color: Ideal plug color is a chocolate brown. A rich plug will be a darkish brown or black. May be oily and sooty. A lean plug can be a light brown, or gray (some severe cases can be white). Plug color must be checked after a plug check has been run. To perform plug check run engine at specific RPM that reading is desired for at least 5 seconds, then turn off engine without letting RPM’s fall. This test is very difficult to perform at any RPM other than wide-open throttle.

It can take years to learn how to accurately and precisely read spark plugs. For amateurs, plug color should not be the only piece of evidence used to adjust jetting. Plug reading should be evaluated with other jetting evidence to achieve a proper conclusion on tuning.

- Fuel: The fuel used in your machine is very influential in tuning your engine. Nothing jets better or more consistent than a name brand Race Fuel designed for the specific engine in question. Things to stay away from are pump fuel and aviation fuel. Both can cause inconsistent jetting feedback and make your engine run hotter than normal.

- Silencer: 2 Stroke silencers must be functioning properly. A worn out, poorly maintained, silencer can cause the engine to run funny making tuning difficult. An excessively packed silencer can also cause a tuning difficulty, making the engine lose power and run rich.

- Exhaust Pipe: Check your pipe for severe dents in head pipe section or end cone area, dents in these areas may affect tuning. Also check for carbon build up inside pipe. Any carbon build up at all is not desirable. Heavy build up will hamper engine tuning and rob power. Pipes with these problems should be replaced.

- Silencer Color: Always take note of the silencer exhaust color where the exhaust exits the silencer. Inspect the core and corresponding end cap. Colors will be similar to plug color.

- Air Filter: It is highly recommended to do your initial engine tuning/jetting with a new air filter. A used filter will never quite work as perfect as new one. Old, dirty, improperly serviced filters will severely hamper proper engine performance and tuning. When performance is critical use a new filter.

- One Change at a time: When tuning a carburetor, only make one adjustment at a time. This is a good rule to follow so the tuner will not get confused or mislead from false information. Keeping to one adjustment at a time will help ensure that you will always know what effect each adjustment had on the engine.

- Unresponsive?: If during the jetting/tuning process you have made a number of adjustments (especially main jet or needle clip) to the carburetor and the engine has not changed. There is a strong possibility that something other than carburetion jetting is causing your engine to perform incorrectly. Jetting is a constant. When adjustments are made to a machine with all components working properly the engine will respond in some way. Depending on the adjustment made the machine will either run better or worse, but there is almost always some form of change. When changes are made without any response it is a sign of other problems. Things to check out would include; low compression, weak spark, fouled plug, failing reeds, air leak, clogged air filter, clogged or over packed silencer, etc.

- Idle Adjustment: To adjust the idle on PJ and PWM model carburetors it is necessary to turn the knob on top of the choke clockwise to lower idle and counter clockwise to raise idle. PWK models are adjusted by a screw/spring approximately ¾" below the carburetor cap on the left hand side of the carburetor. Screw in to raise idle out to lower. On many models screw must be screwed in most of the way for proper idle speed. PE models also have a screw/spring that manually raises the slide. On PE models idle screw is approximately 2" below carburetor cap and perpendicular to the slide.

- Free Play: It is highly recommended that at least a ¼" of free play is kept in the throttle cable. Failure to run proper free play can cause the throttle to stick.

- Proper Slide Throw: It is always a good idea to confirm that the carburetor slide opens and closes all the way. This should be done with carburetor hooked up but off the machine, as to physically see slide travel thru its complete stroke.

- PWK Cable Holder: The cable holder on PWK model carburetor must be unscrewed to remove needle for adjustment. The only way to properly remove cable holder is with a ¼" ratchet and a 6mm socket. Turn counter clockwise to loosen. During reassembly do not over tighten. Do not put screwdriver in slot to attempt to loosen. This will cause severe damage to cable holder and slide.

TUNING TIPS-VARIOUS WEATHER CONDITIONS

- The engines fuel requirements are in a large part determined by the amount of air getting into the engine. More air requires more fuel, less air requires less fuel.

- Temperature; Cold weather conditions require the richest carburetor jet settings. This is because cold air condenses allowing more air into the engine than warm conditions where air expands allowing less air into the engine.

- Humidity; Conditions of high humidity cause your engine to run richer and make less power than moderate to dry conditions. The moisture in the air displacing oxygen causes this rich effect from humid conditions. Allowing less air into the engine, requiring less fuel.

- Rain: Is humidity at the next level. During rainy conditions your engine will require leaner jetting because the rain displaces the air. *Always note the ambient temperature. Sometimes cold temperatures during rain sessions can off set oxygen displacement.

- Elevation: Knowing the elevation is critical in fine-tuning an engine for maximum performance. Base line elevation should always be sea level. As engines are used at altitude above sea level for example 2000 ft, 4000 ft. etc. adjustments must be made to compensate for the loss in compression. (Atmospheric pressure decrease as altitude increases causing less air to be compressed into the cylinder) The proper initial adjustment is to alter the cylinder head volume (consult your engine tuner for specific instructions) to try to off set the loss of air to compress.

After this adjustment is made the engine must have the jetting checked and possibly adjusted.

If the engine is not modified for the new altitude, then the carburetion will most definitely need to be adjusted. As a basic rule of thumb the higher the altitude, the leaner the jetting.

Some more tips courtesy of 'Dammit!'

Terms and Definitions Jetting: The term comes from the two main circuits that control fuel flow in a carburetor. The pilot jet and the main jet.

Main Jet: This is the main fuel circuit in a carburetor. It's a common misconception that this circuit only effects engine performance at wide open throttle. The main jet actually has a trickle down effect on other adjustments and should be adjusted first.

Needle: The needle is attached to the carb slide and is raised and lowered when you push and release the throttle. When you let off your throttle, the needle lowers into the main jet circuit, cutting off fuel flow as it goes down.

Needle Clip: This is the small circular clip that is used to adjust the needle position.

Pilot Jet: This is second jet in your carb. Much smaller than the Main Jet and typically has no effect beyond approximately 1/4 throttle. It's used to adjust your mixture at idle and low throttle.

Air/Pilot Screw: The air screw works in combination with the pilot jet. You can consider it a fine tuner for the pilot circuit. It's most obvious effect is noticed by throttle response.

Float: The float controls fuel level in the float bowl at the bottom of the carburetor. It has no effect on jetting but can cause some symptoms that can be easily confused with a jetting problem. If the fuel level is too low for example, it can cause a bog similar to a lean condition.

Float Seat/Valve: Basically the valve that stops fuel from flowing into the float bowl when the float reaches a specified level.

Rich: A "rich" condition is what occurs when you have too much fuel in your fuel/air mixture. Symptoms of a rich condition can be a rough running engine (sputtering), a black spark plug, a wet plug or excessive plug fouling.

Lean: A "lean" condition is what occurs when you have insufficient fuel in your mixture creating an over abundance of oxygen. Symptoms can be a rough running engine (bogging), a white or light gray spark plug and sometimes can result in overheating or even severe engine damage.

Sputtering: This isn't exactly a technical term but is commonly used to describe how an engine runs when jetted too rich. For example, using too large of a main jet will cause more fuel to enter the combustion chamber than it can efficiently burn. This will result in a "sputter" at full throttle. It could best be described as a rapid misfire. Note: a rich condition is not the only possible source of this type of problem.

Bogging: Again, not a technical term but commonly used. Bogging can be a result of a lean setting where not enough fuel is entering the combustion chamber for the motor to run properly. In some instances this can cause the machine to "bog" as if it were actually running out of gas. Note: a lean condition is not the only possible source of this type of problem.

WOT: This an acronym that stands for Wide Open Throttle.

Plug Chop: Plug chops are the most accurate and easiest way to check your jetting. A proper plug chop should be done with a clean spark plug. Example; to check your main jet, put in a clean spark plug and run the trike at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) for several seconds, then in one motion, pull in the clutch (if applicable), kill the engine and let off the throttle. Remove the spark plug and check the color. You are looking for a nice tan color.

Float: The float controls fuel level in the float bowl at the bottom of the carburetor. It has no effect on jetting but can cause some symptoms that can be easily confused with a jetting problem. If the fuel level is too low for example, it can cause a bog similar to a lean condition.

Float Seat/Valve: Basically the valve that stops fuel from flowing into the float bowl when the float reaches a specified level. If worn it can cause the float bowl to overflow.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Nobody can tell you exactly what jets to use! This is especially true with these 20 year old trikes. No two are exactly alike. Different mods, various states of mechanical well being and different locations (altitude, humidity etc) all play a part. Something as simple as removing your airbox lid can have an effect on your jetting. This is why it's critical that you understand how jetting works so you can get it dialed in perfectly for YOUR machine and riding conditions.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Proper Jetting Procedure The first step is to get your Main Jet dialed in. This circuit should be done first because it has a trickle down effect.

The Main Jet effects your performance most noticably at WOT. You do not fix a low throttle problem by changing your main jet. When the main is correct, there should be no sputtering or bogging at WOT.

Other than performance, the way to test your main jet is by doing WOT Plug Chops. The color of the plug will tell you if you need to do any fine tuning. DO NOT assume it is correct just because the engine appears to be running good. Remember, white and light gray is LEAN which means you need a larger main jet. Black and wet is rich which requires a smaller main jet. The target is a nice tan color. For a much more in depth explanation of plug reading and pictures, click here!

--------------------

After your main jet is dialed in, it's time to move on to the needle.

The Needle effects performance from approximately 1/4 throttle to 2/3 throttle. If you're experiencing performance issues in this throttle range but your main jet is correct, this is where you fix it.

To adjust the needle richer(more fuel), you need to raise it up out of the main jet. You accomplish this by lowering your needle clip. This allows more fuel to flow from the main jet by raising it out of that circuit earlier in the throttle's range of motion. It will make sense once you take a good look at it.

To adjust the needle leaner (less fuel), you need to raise your needle clip. This leaves the needle in the main jet circuit longer, allowing less fuel to flow past.

------------------------

Now it's time to adjust the pilot jet and air screw.

This is how I adjust my pilot jet. If anyone has a better technique, chime in.

If the engine does not quickly return to idle after a good rev, it's too lean and needs a bigger pilot jet. If there's bogging when taking off or reving from idle, it's too rich. These problems can often be tuned out with the air screw.

There's a couple techniques for the pilot/air screw. One that I've heard is to set the idle somewhat high, tighten the air screw until the motor starts to die, then loosen it until it starts to die again, then set the screw right in the middle between these two points, then adjust the idle. I haven't tried that technique, personally.

The way I do it is basically by checking off idle throttle response. Adjust it both ways until you get a clean response when you stab the throttle.

When adjusting the air screw, tightening the screw is richer and loosening it is leaner. This is because tightening the screw allows less air to pass (resulting in more fuel in the mixture which = richer), loosening it lets more air through. Edit: depending on the carb, it's possible that this adjustment might be the opposite. Some experimentation will show you which way does what.
The type above is the most common with 3 wheelers.

---------------------------

Symptoms and Solutions
Q - My bike is breaking up on the top end. What's wrong?
A - That could be a sign of too rich of a main jet. You need to do a WOT plug chop to be sure because an electrical problem can cause a similar symptom. If the plug is black and/or wet, you're too rich. Drop a couple sizes down and try again.

Q - I have no or very little power on the bottom end. It's bogging out a little but once I get past mid-throttle and over it seems fine.
A - Check your needle setting. If it's bogging a little until about 2/3 throttle, richen it up a little by lowering your needle clip. If the problem gets worse, go two clips in the opposite direction and see if it improves.

Q - My bike is running fine but it won't idle no matter what I do with the idle screw. Should I change the pilot?
A - Try adjusting the air screw before you go tearing into the carb to change the pilot jet. The stock pilot size should get you close enough to fine tune it with the air screw for most applications. The pilot jet can also become clogged. In which case it needs to be removed and thoroughly cleaned out or simply replaced.

Q - My trike is cutting out every couple of seconds under throttle. The faster I go, the shorter the intervals between drop outs.
A - This is most likely a float adjustment issue and has nothing to do with your jetting. The float level could be low, causing the engine to die out for a second while the bowl fills back up. Adjust your float to attain a higher fuel level in the float bowl.

Q - How do I know where to start with my main jet?!
A - When in doubt, go rich! You can make an educated guess by looking at what the stock jet size is, then taking into account what kind of mods you have. If you have an aftermarket pipe and filter, you're going to be flowing a lot more air through the engine than if those items were stock so you have to richen up the jetting to match that increased oxygen. In my opinion it's always best to go richer than you think is really needed, then jet down. Jet it rich until it sputters at WOT, then go down until it stops sputtering, then check the plug for piece of mind. This technique is especially useful in situations where you do not get good readings from your plug (which can be caused by a number of factors). This is my primary method of getting my main jet dialed in.

Q - When I'm climbing a steep hill or dune, I hear a little bit of a pinging sound. What is that?
A - That is called detonation. This happens when you need to run a higher octane fuel. Under that kind of load, your engine is generating more heat which can cause lower octane fuel to ignite earlier than it's supposed to. It is not a jetting issue.
 
I read the whole thing slick, thanks. It helps.

Can I do a WOT run with the wheels off the ground and no load? Or do I have to physically ride it? It would be a lot easier if I can do a WOT in the garage. Perhaps set the rear brake so there is a load. A set of pads is cheaper then a ticket.
 
I read the whole thing slick, thanks. It helps.

Can I do a WOT run with the wheels off the ground and no load? Or do I have to physically ride it? It would be a lot easier if I can do a WOT in the garage. Perhaps set the rear brake so there is a load. A set of pads is cheaper then a ticket.

^^^^^^That would be dangerous! I say HELL NO! I have the same issues about riding, But ya have to find a place to do these chops you want it close to- This color smoke ring!
 
The key to plug chop is the load placed on the engine, which is why you try for highest gear (heaviest load) and when you stop pulling you pull the clutch and shut it off. That is why you can't just free rev it to get a reading. As to the ice, unless you live way far north , might as well give up on that idea for this winter.

http://www.blasterforum.com/engine-13/what-jets-you-using-28981/ Look through this thread for a set-up simular to yours, keeping in mind temp and altitude differences.

As to your air set-up , even with reed valves any set-up has a "tuning" effect on the engine, length/ dia. Try running a larger pipe from carb to cleaner. Even at asphalt drag strip I ran 6" unis on my drag bike.
 
I only popped off the air tube to see if that was what causing the popping at 1/2 throttle. It was the problem. I was on a public paved road and I didn't want to be there to long before the cops show up to give me a ticket. I didn't have a short piece of tube to put the a/f on. So I did a plug chop run to at least give me a starting point. I fabed up a 6" short pipe. I don't like how it sits right above the chain. I can see future problems with mud and water getting on it. The trails can get pretty muddy where I go. So I just might spring for a cfm box and be done with it. SOME SNIPPED

I ride in muddy and sandy conditions, example below.
What I run for an air box is the stock box with the lid off, sheetmetal along the framerails from the airbox to the gastank to block air and mud and collect air from under the gastank cover, which is the highest point on the quad. The edges of the seat have strips of foam to seal it so it acts as the top of my airbox.

The more things you re-engineer, the more variables you enter into the equation in ways you cannot foresee.
Remember the KISS principle:
KEEP IT STUPID SIMPLE or if it has to be repeated: KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID.
Stock is most the reliable, most known condition.
Put as many things as possible to stock (not "improved" or modified). Introduce change one thing at a time.
Understand many of these folks have spent decades going fast and really know their stuff.
Luckily on forums you don't get to see them shaking their heads and walking away.

252128_10150264952205803_549110802_9297896_3435927_n.jpg
 
I've got the pilot dialed in. It starts idling higher at 1 1/4 turns out with a 52 pilot in it. I lower the clip to the bottom ring on the needle and I put a 165 main in it. I figure I'm better off closer to the rich side to prevent another seize.
I don't know if its an accurate test or not but I jacked the wheels up, checked my cylinder temp it was at 215 degrees and I put it in 6th and revved it from 1/4 to 3/4 throttle and pulled the plug and chopped it. It looks better then the last one that was a light grey color, this one has more brown in it.
Now all I have to do is get it on the ground for a needle plug chop and a wot main plug chop.

52 pilot 165 main.jpg
 
Last edited:
Ok I finally have had the chance to do a wot run properly. It was 30 degrees and mild humidity. I warmed up the bike and got the cylinder up to 235 degrees. I warmed up my van and had the heat on full blast. I changed the plug and loaded it. Its about 1 1/2 miles to my secret city drag run. I pulled the bike out, started it and checked my cylinder temp. It was at 185. I ran it mid throttle down to the end and ran it back hard. It pulled very nice. It sounded great. It didn't miss a beat. great throttle response and pull in every gear at wot. I don't have much of a stretch but I was able to get it into sixth and hold it for a few seconds at wot. I shut it off with the key and coasted back. Pulled the plug and it finally is starting to look good. Nice light brown ring about 60% around the electrode. Pics are in artificial light, not as good as daylight but I can see the color clearly. There is some green on the ground electrode. It must be 10% ethanol reformulated crappy fuel even though its 93 octane. I will have to find a better source for fuel. Would mixing in some 110 octane help this if I can't find a non ethanol fuel? Would adding a quart of 110 to a fuel tank help alleviate the ethanol in the fuel? Just an idea. Don't scold me now.
When I have another chance I will do another chop run with the 170 main in it and see if it will fall on its face. A 180 main made it fall on its face but that was before I fixed a number of problems this last round.
After reading the two posts that the members posted for me (greatly appreciated!). I had a better understanding of what was happening with my bike and what I should do from that point. So thank you.
I'm going to order a cfm box and quit f*cking around with the a/f situation. I want piece of mind that my bike will go through some nasty trails without having my filter get wet or muddy. I wanted to get a good fmf pipe first but it will have to wait. The last thing on the list is a q series silencer. I don't want any hassle on the trails. The bike is way too loud for my liking anyway. I couldn't even hear my music with ear buds under a helmet!
I have a performance cdi waiting to be put on. I have 13,000 limit tachometer coming for it. I hope it works. After that its second cylinder big bore and triple ports on intake and exhaust time. Now that I know how to jet it will be a breeze from now on. I got a good deal on a beat up cylinder for the project. This will take me a while.
I also did an experiment with the timing. I slotted the stator and made my own timing marks. If you move your stator counter clockwise it will retard the timing. Timing does not advance much with throttle. Perhaps 2-3 degrees if that. It looks like it runs at about 20 degrees advance. Are all 2 cycles like that? Fixed timing? Minimal timing advance with rpm?

The darker plug is the constant plug.

52 pilot 165 main.jpg

constant plug.jpg
 
Last edited:
What should I have it gapped at. I had it at .28

0.028"-0.032" as per the Yamaha Manual. You are fine.

turbowrenchhead; said:
I don't know if its an accurate test or not but I jacked the wheels up, checked my cylinder temp it was at 215 degrees and I put it in 6th and revved it from 1/4 to 3/4 throttle and pulled the plug and chopped it.

Ahhhh, you didn't listen to Larry or Slick
Larry's Shee said:
The key to plug chop is the load placed on the engine, which is why you try for highest gear (heaviest load) and when you stop pulling you pull the clutch and shut it off. That is why you can't just free rev it to get a reading. As to the ice, unless you live way far north , might as well give up on that idea for this winter

Free reving even with brake on is not the same as hauling bike and 200 lbs rider up a hill. Not enough load. Test told you nothing.
The 1/4 to 3/4 throttle run is for the needle only, and is best done after Main.
The jetting article posted by Slick and others is really good stuff and it is absolutely right in that you should jet from the top, Main, Needle, Pilot,
but I often do preliminary pilot work like you did just to get the machine to run and idle for testing.

turbowrenchhead; said:
I ran it mid throttle down to the end and ran it back hard. It pulled very nice. It sounded great. It didn't miss a beat. great throttle response and pull in every gear at wot. I don't have much of a stretch but I was able to get it into sixth and hold it for a few seconds at wot. I shut it off with the key and coasted back.

Atta boy! That is a run like you should be doing it! I would of held WOT both ways but your results will still be valid.
You will want to do this every time you change something, filter, silencer, airbox, weather, fuel, pipe.
The more you do it the more you will learn and the more "in tune" you will be with your engine's state of tune.
If you don't want to do this, leave the engine stock, that is why the manufacturer leaves a wide performance safety margin.

turbowrenchhead; said:
Would adding a quart of 110 to a fuel tank help alleviate the ethanol in the fuel? Just an idea. Don't scold me now.

Ha! All of us getting you nervous? Don't be. Text always sounds more harsh than it is.
I like that you get your a$$ off the couch and try things. You are gonna learn and a couple burnt pistons are great motivation!
No, don't change fuels yet. I run on pump premium with a good Ipone oil and am damn fast. Quicker than my 660 Raptor.
I run hundreds of gallons of fuel through my bikes and often fuel up in remote places. I gotta tune for the worst fuel.
My KTM 125 is set up to run on regular 87 octane. It has over 40 hp and will run 80+mph. No, your fuel is fine.
Don't change too many things at once (did I say that before?).

turbowrenchhead; said:
Timing does not advance much with throttle. Perhaps 2-3 degrees if that. It looks like it runs at about 20 degrees advance. Are all 2 cycles like that? Fixed timing? Minimal timing advance with rpm?

Yes they are if they have a tuned pipe. The reason for it is the huge supercharging effect of the tuned pipe increases pressure and burn speed in proportion with the RPM. Some engines actually retard the timing at peak RPM. It is comparable to turbocharged or supercharged or NOX 4 stroke motors. Most of them run flat or retarded timing when on the boost. Advance is only there to make up for slow burning. When you get your engine burning faster, you don't need as much advance, and increased cylinder pressure generally increases chamber burn speed. Old Harry Ricardo taught us this.

Sounds like you are getting close on jetting. Keep the WOT runs short and looking at the plug until you are confident with your Main jetting. Main jetting will change with weather and mods. Needle is next, if you run out of clip positions you might have to buy another. My son has an FMF pipe on his Blaster (I do too, but it is a KTM engine and pipe), the FMF Blaster pipe is no great shakes over stock. The guys here say there are better pipes. Stock pipe on the Blaster is not too bad actually.

Hey dude, congrats on getting your jetting close,
and on your flameproof underwear that got you through the process with us!