Nitrous Oxide
- Thread starter wotis11
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The oxygen is there in the molecule N20 all the time. It is not RELEASED until the molecule is heated. The only way to get it to "free release" (in other words for the nitrogen and oxygen to spontaneously separate) to to decompose the moelcule using a heated catalyst. The hot piston, valves, and head operate as a catalyst for the decomposition of the molecule BUT the decompostion releases the elemental constituents releasing elemental oxygen (O by itself) and molecular nitrogen (N2) at a rate greater than the exothermic reaction can consume the two components. The net result is a gain in flame front temperature (due to the decomposition) and an increase in oxygen concentration in the cylinder. The oxygen concentration is then buffered by the nitrogen (the 66% in the initial molecule) to help keep "knock" at bay. Otherwise, it would be preferrable to simply spray pure oxygen (in the form of O2) into the cylinder. Unfortunately this would create an unbuffered chemical reaction which would probably result in cylinder head separation.
@Puma: I understand that bottle pressure will drop off and running a straight shot for 25 seconds is completely ridiculous. Unforutnately, the battery capacity (for the high drain fuel pump) doesn't care about the nitrous bottle pressure or the overall "run time" of a 5 lb bottle. The whole time the pump is on, the battery is getting drained which means you have a limited FUEL run time in addition to the limited amount of oxidizer run time (stored capacity in the bottle)
Let's try starting over with this peeing contest and look at a few cold hard facts about nitrous:
Nitrous oxide is a strong oxidizer. The oxidizer flow, in a perfect world, would be matched with fuel flow to keep the engine happy. The problem with putting nitrous oxide on a non DC system vehicle (atv, motorcycle, PWC, snowmobile that runs off AC stator CDI ignition with an AC lighting coil) is power supply. Commercially available nitrous systems are designed for automobiles/motorcycles with an available DC charging system and reserve capacity 12VDC attery.
The battery that can fit in the blaster plastics (in the "battery box") is about 4Ah. Without a DC conversion (we'll get to that later) the fuel pump drawing about 4 amps is going to be run at above 10VDC on a 4Ah battery for less than a half an hour. For anything other than a flat track quad or drag quad, that's utterly useless and can, in certain circumstances, be dangerous to the engine. If the battery drains enough that the pump speed drops (~10VDC) but the solenoids can still be activated, the mixture control can be erratic at best and piss poor at worst but the system will still be able to spray full nitrous pressure resulting in a lean condition.
With a DC conversion, the maximum comercially available lighting coil for the blaster is 75watts. A regulator rectifier which is 100% efficient (which CANNOT exist according to Sir Issac Newton, in case you want to argue physics now) will only put out ~5.7 amps at 13VDC (which isn't what they put out either...... ) or 5.2amps at 14.4VDC (what they're actually designed to rectify to). If we ignore the need or lighting or natural battery dissipation the system has a theoretical 100% efficient conversion rate with a surplus of approximately 1 amp to run a small automotive fuel pump and solenoids.
If we factor in reality (which some obviously find it hard to grasp) there will be a net LOSS of energy during operation of the system.
You COULD only "arm" the system right before activation and "drag out" the seemingly inevitable draining of the battery by either spacing out the "draws" if you do not have a DC convserion or allowing the battery to charge the whole time you do not have the system armed but that would require careful monitoring of battery condition while the system is "armed" to make sure that pump pressure hasn't fallen off..... This is a risky proposition IMO.
There are other options. As blastard pointed out, a similar "prepared" system to a battery could use a inert gas pressurized small pressure vessel fuel cell to deliver relatively stable high pressure fuel to the solenoid for a given amount of time/volume. Obviously the system would need safety backups such as low pressure switches on the pressure tank and Would require a very careful setup of stored fuel and store nitrous (theoretically matching them evenly so that they both run out together) The good thing is, the safety systems would not need monitoring like battery voltage, the bad thing is it could also cause some trouble.
I was thinking about devising a system that used an emulsion tube (similar to the pilot jet) inside a venturi mounted just outside of the carburetor throat. Any sort of nitrous delivery could be used including one of the "whippet" (like the CO2 containers found in "pellet guns") bottle handlebar mount dispensers. The fuel would be supplied to the emulsion tube from a line at the bottom of the normal float bowl (like how a powerjet is installed). The nitrous flow would create a vacuum in the small venturi and the flow would then mix in the emulsion tube with the fuel before being forced ( under the natural nitrous pressure) into the intake tract.
This has a few advantages and a few disadvantages!!!!! (read here to tear this idea apart and if you have any suggestions quote this section)
The nitrous flow would create the vacuum needed to draw the fuel in without requiring any electricity. Fuel delivery could be gravity to the float bowl just like it is currently. When the nitrous oxide is done, the vacuum drops off and fuel delivery ceases. The nitrous and fuel would be delivered together inherently by the design.
Nitrous bottle "freeze up" COULD result in a flow disruption and pressure drop. This wouldn't necessarily change the oxygen to fuel ratio as the dropping pressure would reduce the venturi effect, it would just change the power of the "shot".
The system would obviously require quite a bit of engineering and fine tuning..... this would NOT be an off the shelf item and fine tuning fuel flow to nitrous flow would be an EXTREME challenge. This setup would NOT be for the faint of heart.....
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BTW......i bought the nitrous kit from 442 last night, wether or not it goes onto a blaster is yet to be discussed
While I think that the way it's setup is a recipe for disaster, I'd like to see it happen just to learn something from this (not to see your engine go boom!)
@slick, I'm not going to say waste of money. $150 for a nitrous kit is a decent deal even if it never makes it onto a blaster....
No one here is denying THAT nitrous oxide works.... we all know that nitrous can be an insane power adder. The "spirited discussion" last night was about HOW nitrous oxide works and HOW to best put it on an ATV. If the blaster had a high output multipole stator (150w+) and a DC system already installed (especially if it was EFI like the raptor700's) putting a nitrous system on it would be MUCH easier. You would need to "t" into the fuel pressure and get a nozzle kit in the range of the spray and BAM you'd be in business.
@ SI, The system should only be armed when you are about to use the system. Its a safety device, I have seen the damaged caused when a NOS system is activated when the engine RPM is low or not at WOT, trust me its BAD! You would still need a 12V source to power the solenoids, so either a DC conversion or a battery is needed. The 30 minutes you calculated is more than enough to go through a bottle (most motorcycle or ATV bottles are 2lb). To me, recharging the battery after a day of racing is no big deal considering a quad like this WILL be high maintenence. And yes, this application will be pretty much for drag only, using something like this in the trails sounds like a recipe for disaster.
If a system COULD be devised that didn't require power though, you could install said system on pretty much any quad (including a completely stock trail bike) and use it at will.
It wouldn't require any recharging (other than the nitrous obviously) and could be left on the quad almost indefinitely until the operator decides to use it, basically, without any maintenance at all.
Using the nitrous oxide container pressure for the delivery mechanism is, in my opinion, "safer" due to the lack of needed external power and the ability of the product to be self limiting. There basically wouldn't be any possiblity of injecting nitrous without the accompanied fuel because the fuel would already be there (without needing pressurizing).
My idea for wet delivery, is of course, contigent on the design I have in my head working for proper fuel pickup and metering (I generally don't mention ideas which I don't at least *THINK* I could make work....)
Ok, so your trying to think of a way to make one of the "whippet" deals work. Biggest issue I see is being able to measure and control Nitrous pressure, the tuning window will be all over the place. And (IMO) the power gains with that kit compared to a traditional NOS system doesnt make worth the effort, maybe 2 or 3 hp (thats why the ebay ad says only a slight jet change is needed for fuel enrichment). But I am not one to knock a guy for thinking outside the box, I wish you the best of luck.
Oh, I'm not crazy enough to try it on anything of mine. Only throwing my "thoughts" out there for someone else to pickup and run.
The challenge, I agree, would be to match the system flow to fuel necessity. That would be a challenge during the manufacturing of the venturi and emulsion tube to get the design right. Once the design is right, the actual nitrous flow is of little importance because the nitrous flow would create vacuum to draw in a certain amount of fuel. The faster the nitrous is blowing, the greater the vacuum, the more fuel is going to be drawn in.
I'm not saying that design and construction would be easy, only that I can see advantages over a system that does not use power (electricity) versus one that does.
Nitrous is like a sexy biotch with an STD, you wanna hit it, but are scared of the consequences.
We're also talking about an ATV engine which only has 17hp from the factory.... you're not going to be able to throw a 50hp shot at it and have it remain in one piece. What do you think is safe for an aircooled 2t engine anyway? 5hp, 7hp, 10hp MAYBE? I think if you threw much more than that all the sudden, it would be terminal.... the added heat load all of the sudden could, theoretically, cause a 4 point siezure. Or worse, break one of the cylinder mounting tabs off the cylinder when the "bomb" goes off.
A 5 lb cylinder will do like 50 5hp shots. The NOS sneaky pete systems are only 10oz of liquid and advertise a 30hp shot as lasting a few seconds.....
just wanted to say
"Nitrous oxide, commonly known as laughing gas or sweet air,[1] is a chemical compound with the formula N2O. It is an oxide of nitrogen."
"An oxide is a chemical compound that contains at least one oxygen atom and one other element[1] in its chemical formula."
"Oxygen ( /ˈɒksɨdʒɨn/ ok-si-jin) is the element with atomic number 8 and represented by the symbol O. Its name derives from the Greek roots ὀξύς (oxys) ("acid", literally "sharp", referring to the sour taste of acids) and -γενής (-genēs) ("producer", literally "begetter"), because at the time of naming, it was mistakenly thought that all acids required oxygen in their composition. At standard temperature and pressure, two atoms of the element bind to form dioxygen, a very pale blue, odorless, tasteless diatomic gas with the formula O2."
so if people can read, nitrous oxide does have oxygen in it. what most people call oxygen is really dioxide, 2 oxygen atoms together.
plain and simple guys.
"Nitrous oxide, commonly known as laughing gas or sweet air,[1] is a chemical compound with the formula N2O. It is an oxide of nitrogen."
"An oxide is a chemical compound that contains at least one oxygen atom and one other element[1] in its chemical formula."
"Oxygen ( /ˈɒksɨdʒɨn/ ok-si-jin) is the element with atomic number 8 and represented by the symbol O. Its name derives from the Greek roots ὀξύς (oxys) ("acid", literally "sharp", referring to the sour taste of acids) and -γενής (-genēs) ("producer", literally "begetter"), because at the time of naming, it was mistakenly thought that all acids required oxygen in their composition. At standard temperature and pressure, two atoms of the element bind to form dioxygen, a very pale blue, odorless, tasteless diatomic gas with the formula O2."
so if people can read, nitrous oxide does have oxygen in it. what most people call oxygen is really dioxide, 2 oxygen atoms together.
plain and simple guys.
Why don't you STFU and take your fake ass on to some other forum. I know who you are.
Oxygen is an element.symbol O. It is not made up of something else, it is a pure substance. It is a diatomic gas O2!
Again straight from a 11th grade chemistry book!
Again straight from a 11th grade chemistry book!
There is a system like the one sicivicdude was talking about. I pressurizes the fuel bowl through the vent tubes.
I would rather do the electric pump route, as mentioned before, this really isn't something you would do on anything but a drag bike. At least I wouldn't
I would rather do the electric pump route, as mentioned before, this really isn't something you would do on anything but a drag bike. At least I wouldn't
I've never seen a nitrous system that pressurizes the float bowl. I was actually throwing an idea out there that I came up with on my own while trying to think of a way around the problems involved with putting a nitrous kit on a blaster without using a battery....
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